Reliable and Flexible Switching System

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Chris posted this 30 September 2017

A Reliable and Flexible Switching System is second to none, it is the most important piece of Hardware one could have on your bench!

I was lucky enough to share some data with a friend that had worked on this same concept with one of his friends, Back then, the idea was called the: Quadratron

 

Funny enough TheOldScientist has done some videos on this:

 

I have also build a few versions of my own inception of the: Quadratron which is now called IPC-quadra

 

Version One:

 

Version Two:

 

 

I have another H Bridge I use also, this is not related to the Quadratron. It is a Custom Built, Salvaged from an Old UPS, 3000VA:

 

I think it is important to not, this is very handy, but its not a necessity, cheaper and easier options exist. EBay has some good options. Variable Frequency and Duty Cycle are the absolute most important.

High Voltage and Current is not necessary.

I personally find a Microcontroller is a good cheap option! Easy to use, Plug and Play if you don't mind the pun! I have built all my own software:

 

I think if we combined our skills, we as a team could come up with a community based project that is better and cheaper than all options presented!

China could do cheap PCB's, We could build our own software!

We could find a cheap Microcontroller.

Let me know if you're keen to look into this!

   Chris 

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Chris posted this 21 February 2024

Hey Neale,

Sorry for the late reply, been busy.

The Capacitor Array and Protection Diodes are not important, but yes they can:

  1. Protect your Power Supply.
  2. Show, that Power coming back does occur by Blocking the returning Power, via the Diodes.
  3. Change the state of operation of your machine.

 

You need to be careful with these sorts of things, because a simple Cap Bank and Diodes can change the operation of the whole Circuit, which can throw you off track, so beware of this!

Its a very simple circuit, here is a pic of the PCB:

 

Pretty straight forward.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Tinker posted this 20 February 2024

Good afternoon from Australia,

Now that my 4-channel switching setup is built and operational I've begun replicating simple experiments and thoroughly enjoying the process. Having already gained a lot of knowledge, I decided to revisit some videos in search of fresh insights. During my viewing of "Non-Inductive Coil Experiment - Video One" by @Chris, the Capacitor Protection Block was mentioned, prompting me to quickly recognise that it's cheap insurance for my power supply.  I have looked around the internet for ideas and I'm hoping some members can lean in with what they use and perhaps offer some circuits.  Thanks in advance.

 

Neale

PS -  I have 4 spare circuitboards available if anyone would like them, no charge. @Chris perhaps you can assist in allocating them or is it first to IM me?

 

This is the Capacitor block. - looks straight forward but just want to confirm. Thanks again

I need this

Phil posted this 28 January 2024

Hi Neale,

I can send you a PCB for free as I have a spare.

PM me your address and I'll send it ASAP.

I can probably add some components with it as well.

Cheers,

Phil

Tinker posted this 28 January 2024

Ooops, rookie mistake on my part. I saw the post box at the bottom of page 1 and thought that was it. My apologies, am continuing to read. Lesson learnt!

 

Neale

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Chris posted this 27 January 2024

Hi Neale,

Gerbers are attached to this thread, you will need to read through the thread.

Both High Side and Low side switching can be done.

The rest depends on your application, what mosfets you put in.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

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Tinker posted this 27 January 2024

Hi all, @Chris, just wondering if you have gerber files for the lastest switching PCB or happy to purchase if you still have some available? I read through this thread a couple of times and watched most of the videos however please excuse my ignorance with the next few questions/clarifications as I’m still pretty new to this.   So if I understand correctly the board has a power supply of approx 5V to run it’s circuit, it takes a PWM signal from any function generator source (Ardunio or dedicated Function Generator), and switches an external power supply based on the PWM signal. 

So;

  1. Does it switch positive and negative from the power supply? From what I could see in one example you were  switching the negative only.
  2. Is there a max voltage and/or current that can be switched?
  3. Is there a max frequency for switching?
  4. You mentioned this is 4 channels, do we need all 4 for our experiments or is this just for redundancy/backup?

Thanks in advance. If this is not relevant to this thread please IM me.

Neale

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Kritischer posted this 07 June 2023

Thank you all again tremendously for the thoughtful comments and guidance.

 

I have had repeated success using the 2nd (top) channel.

I changed diodes, resistors, and the RK0515 on the bottom most recently. 

Now that I know where to probe across easiest (pin 1 of IL610 and one side of 1kΩ off pin 6) the signal presence is obvious and clean. I'm now positive (or have at least convinced myself) that I damaged the other IL610's. I should probably swap the one from the top, but I hate these chinsy dip sockets and don't want to push my luck. I ordered more IL610's expedited because I need at least 2 channels this time around.

I had the setup ringing last night while trying to light a bulb as a regular transformer. I didn't get there yet but the switching definitely works and the rise times are < 20nS. I saw upwards of 140V p2p from a 4.5V input from the PS. I need to get better at taking scope shots for my next post, which may be here or somewhere else on the forum. 

donovan posted this 07 June 2023

Hi,

Yes, that is just the ground lift plug I use!

When grounding the scope, use only the ground clip at the end of the scope probe.

99.99% of time when using multichannel scopes, I will remove the ground leads from all the scope probes except Channel One, (which would be my trigger channel......)

It is more important to have no ground loops as opposed to maybe a little bit more noise on the other channels.

I have trained a few people in my time......and I think it also is more important, to just put up with a little noise.....rather than be lead down the garden path by accidental ground loops.

Grounding by itself is a life time of learning to understand all the nuances.

Great job!!!

Donovan

thaelin posted this 05 June 2023

Hey there:

   Just for the record, I am now coming up along side of you with a amcc 0400 and 200 turns l2 and l3. Figure 20 turns for l1. Long time trying to use what at hand and didn't work as I wanted. Will be starting my own thread but wanted to give encouragement any way I can.

thay

 

 

Kritischer posted this 05 June 2023

Long story shorter: I replaced the 1N5822 with the 1N5819 and the channel started working! Perhaps the incorrect reversed Zener (that was fixed) created a situation where one of the 1N5822's became damaged, so the new 1N5819 resolved something.

I knew it was working when I heard the metglas cores clink together. The DC power supply was set to 3V However, the current on the power supply was high.. like 4A so I shut down the PS to check a few things. I was switching on the high side of the inductive load FYI. The MOSFET I was using had an Rds of 65mΩ.

Before I use both POC's I wanted to see if I could make a transformer first so I put one of the 1N5822's on one of the POC's and connected a 40W lightbulb (too high a rating?). Making slight changes to frequency and duty cycle had a big difference on the current being drawn, very sensitive. I wasn't able to see any light glowing as a swept across frequency with a 50% duty cycle. I tried both POC's with a diode in both directions and still didn't see any light.

Full disclosure, I then accidentally damaged the C3M0065090D  due to negligence. I had shorted one of the POC's and was trying to measure across a 1Ω resistor...

Yes. Stupid.

Since I will need another channel, I built another one this time using an IRPF460 which has an Rds of 270mΩ.

That channel is less touchy so I put the IRPF460 on the first channel (which now doesn't work again). I'm going to change some parts out later but that's my fault. The circuit (second channel) does work.

The main contributing reason (besides negligence) of why I think I blew a channel is because I still can't see what's going on using the scope.

I wanted to start this post by saying I made progress. I expect to still need to spend time getting to the point where I can light a light as a transformer. Troubleshooting that probably doesn't belong here.

When you say ground lift plug, do you mean these?

Is this an example of how I would connect the Ground of an unused channel to the lift plug? I will try this later too.

Overall I'm extremely grateful for your thoughtful comments and that I got something to work, but understand that I need to re-read your latest troubleshooting steps when I'm on the bench. There's more to learn from those comments.

I did end up connecting the Honda Generator. The circuit still worked and I did see less noise when probing... but I'm still not doing something right if I can't see the signal coming out of the MCP1403 of a working device

I'm almost to the point where I can start to spend time tuning the device itself. You can expect those questions to go in their relevant post by topic.

donovan posted this 05 June 2023

Hi,

Did some quick research, RK0515S;

is the single O/P version as opposed to the RK0515D;

which is the dual O/P version.

Other suffix letters indicate the rated isolation voltage.

Donovan

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ISLab posted this 04 June 2023

Hi @Kritischer,

Just a suggestion to start testing from scratch, and follow these steps:

1. remove both ICs, and check the voltage levels for 5V and 15V, and across all caps and resisters for open or shorts. If all is ok, then:
2. insert only IL610 and check signal input and output. If all is well then:
3. insert MCP and check signal.

You may just have an issue at step 1 itself.

Btw, is your RK-0515S the exactly correct part number? The "S" at the end can make all the difference, if I recall right. There are a few variations that are numbered very similar.

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Chris posted this 04 June 2023

Hey Kritischer,

In your scope shot:

 

You're up around 7.7 Volts, way to high, that's why the IL610 is getting hot/warm. 5 Volts peak, max, is where you need to be! It is DC by the looks, so that's good!

Remove your MCP1403 and scope the Output Signal from your IL610, lets see what the open Circuit Output Signal is like?

@Donovan, I agree, I also like to troubleshoot, but get short on patience from time to time. This circuit has pretty good isolation, but yes some noise gets through. If one has a noisy source, then the mosfet will be noisy also.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

donovan posted this 04 June 2023

Hi,

Yes, 99.99% of wall wart PS are isolated from ground, and the way you have the signal generator and PS connected with test leads should be perfectly fine.  Although I would remove the Generator Chassis ground, just to make it simpler.

Donovan

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donovan posted this 04 June 2023

Hi,

Great effort in troubleshooting!  When I am troubleshooting with a client, I always tell them......I am going to ask a million questions, and probably the same question many times, but bear with me, as it helps in my troubleshooting.....You have presented a lot of info here, hopefully I don't mess any of it up.

Yes, an isolation transformer is best to run the scope, but for many years I just carry a ground lift plug with me for the scope.  Simple and effective, and relatively safe if you are aware of the limitations.  I am not familar with all scopes, but that has been my practice.  I would go that way over the Honda Generator, that may introduce a bunch of new problems.

The one scope shot you see the 500mV P-P 70 kHz waveform.   (Chris, did you mention, this may be coming from the generator?  Maybe artifacts from it?)  It may be that is leftovers of the RK0515 DC-DC converter, that runs at 50 - 105 kHz, depending on a variety of factors.  When you measured this waveform, you had the scope ground on the Signal generator ground and measured the grounds on the 610.....NOW....really these two grounds you measure between should be an open... isolation provided by the RF0515....so you may measure all sorts of interesting stuff!!!  We don't need it there, but it's there, let's just keep that in the back of our mind right now.....

From this discussion.....really when measuring the input signal and related PS, the scope ground should be on the signal generator ground......and when measuring the output signal and related PS, the scope ground should be on the RK0515 ground.

You could remove the ground from the SIgnal Generator Chassis, just to make things even simpler....

And (with everything powered off) you could measure with an Ohm meter, the resistance between the signal generator ground and the RK0515 ground......it should be an Open.....

Do you have anything connected to the MOSFET O/P?  If so, disconnect it at this stage of troubleshooting.

In the one photo/test you measured from the generator/PS ground to Pin 2 of the 610, ideally, at the same instant I would have made the same measurement but to Pin 3 of the 610, and and the difference will be exactly what is going into the 610.  You measured a nice 10 V waveform from ground to 10V on Pin 2, that is perfect.  And I would expect to see a similar waveform but from ground to about 9V peak (just for a round number.......after enough troubleshooting a person realizes there are about 3 levels of approximation or accuracies that will speed up the process) at this point we don't need to know if it is 9.2 or 8.8, just as long as it is not identical or Zero.....We need to have good PS voltage (which it looks like you do) and we need to have a good I/P signal to move on to the next step.

As Chris said, it is pretty simple.....but even I have spent way too much time troubleshooting the simple ones!

I hope this helps.  Some of it may be seem not needed, but it will help us really understand the circuit.

I love troubleshooting!!!

Donovan

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Kritischer posted this 03 June 2023

To clarify, this is what I thought the input of the IL610 was

There is signal on the IL610 input

 

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Chris posted this 03 June 2023

Hi K,

I mean the Input Signal to the IL610, you need to make sure this is DC PWM 5V.

Stupid question, but, Kritischer, you have checked the Input Signal is 5V from the Zero Graticule Line to Peak and not 5.5V from Peak to Peak?

Of course, this will be an issue if you have made this mistake, it needs 5V Input Signal, not 2.5V Positive and 2.5V Negative, not Negative Going Signals, not AC Signals.

 

This scope shot being labeled as "Input Signal":

 

 

Has insufficient Amplitude, so it appears your Input Signal to the IL610 is also insufficient Amplitude, 5V DC, with no AC. This is the Signal coming out of your Function Generator.

Please scope this and lets have another review.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Kritischer posted this 03 June 2023

Stupid question, but, Kritischer, you have checked the Input Signal is 5V from the Zero Graticule Line to Peak and not 5.5V from Peak to Peak?

Of course, this will be an issue if you have made this mistake, it needs 5V Input Signal, not 2.5V Positive and 2.5V Negative, not Negative Going Signals, not AC Signals.

 

 I switched from a 12VDC supply to one labeled 7.5VDC per recommendation. I don't know how that could happen.

This is a very simple circuit and I have not seen anyone have such trouble with it, normally it is an easy build and its just works, 100% Solid and Reliable!

I tried to explain that I struggle. Even so, I have done other things that I feel have been more difficult. This is painful.

This summarizes the changes to the board. Sorry for the text.

Last night I replaced both sockets and installed new chips, and replaced the 100uF caps.

I started getting paranoid about the Signal generator Negative with respect to the Gnd lug on the back vs the DC supply so I put this together so I could jump in or jump out the Gnd.

I verified continuity of everything seen.

 

IL610 Voltage

 

The MCP has power, but I don't know why it's over 16V with the 7.5V supply (if it's even related) It  used to be ~15.5V when I was using the 12V supply, but then again I did make the grounds common. I don't know.

 

There is signal on the IL610 input

 

But when I probe the output and hit Auto I don't see anything resembling the input signal.

I tried using the reference shown, but I also tried using pins 1/4/7/5 and they all look like this

The input signal hasn't changed from 1Khz 8% duty at this point. I did hit auto on the scope.
The signal is low and I don't know where 71.9Khz is coming from.

 

Donovan had said to scope grounds anyway. 

I shouldn't be seeing anything like what I'm seeing here should I?

 (One of the most important things is to keep an open mind when troubleshooting......I have had many people say things like, ground is ground, why measure it.....yes, but your troubleshooting....is it really ground, or is that the problem...)  I hope that makes sense.....we want to see if there is actually a signal present at the I/P pins..

There's a big difference between what happens in simulation and theory and what actually happens in practice. Real bench guys develop different subtle relationships with equipment and over the years develop practices that an armchair technician might scoff at. Some things might even seem superstitious. When a guy with 10k hrs on the bench suggests something it's probably worth the effort. 

I have not seen anyone have such trouble with it,

I am he. Behold!

At this point I'm just waiting to see if replacing the IN5822 with the 1N5819 does anything.

Outside of that.. the only thing I could blame besides myself is the wiring.

My house is very old and the wiring isn't great. To make it worse, I'm 25m across the property in my barn that is powered by wiring going from the main building to the barn. I don't see a separate ground rod. I have never had a problem with other electronics but this is more sensitive instrumentation. I thought it was worth mentioning.

I am assuming your scope is isolated from ground, with an isolation transformer, or a ground lift plug.

The scope is a Rigol DS1054Z that I purchased for this project. I scoured the manual for references to grounding and isolation but didn't find any. It's not safe to assume. I am not using either a separate isolation transformer nor a ground lift plug. 

If I'm not doing something right, it's because I don't know any better or it's the first time something has mattered.

To rule out my AC mains I'm going to bring over my Honda EU2000 generator and try using that.

 

 

Chris posted this 02 June 2023

Hey Guys,

Stupid question, but, Kritischer, you have checked the Input Signal is 5V from the Zero Graticule Line to Peak and not 5.5V from Peak to Peak?

Of course, this will be an issue if you have made this mistake, it needs 5V Input Signal, not 2.5V Positive and 2.5V Negative, not Negative Going Signals, not AC Signals.

This is a very simple circuit and I have not seen anyone have such trouble with it, normally it is an easy build and its just works, 100% Solid and Reliable!

Its going to be one of three things:

  1. Bad Part
  2. Bad Placement or Connection
  3. or an Input Signal Issue - No the IL610 should not be getting hot/warm!

 

if everything else checks out ok, then its got to be something very simple that you are overlooking.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

donovan posted this 02 June 2023

Hi,

Yes, lets see if we can figure this out....we will all learn.

With no O/P from the 610, and you have 5.5V on the Power I/P for the 610, lets concentrate on that.

I am assuming your scope is isolated from ground, with an isolation transformer, or a ground lift plug.

And I guess the 12V PS ground will also be in the circuit.

When troubleshooting like this I like to put my scope ground as close as possible to the signal source ground.  And scope both the 610 input high side and input ground side.  (One of the most important things is to keep an open mind when troubleshooting......I have had many people say things like, ground is ground, why measure it.....yes, but your troubleshooting....is it really ground, or is that the problem...)  I hope that makes sense.....we want to see if there is actually a signal present at the I/P pins....I am not too familar with the 610, so some of my numbers may need to be confirmed.  it is a transformer input device, with an impedance of around 85 ohms, and it needs about 5ma for a logic 0 and < .5ma for a logic 1, so just some quick math in my head we should see about .425 V signal at the 610 I/P for a high and less than about .0425 V for a low.  (And this can be confirmed another way by measuring the voltage across the limit resistor and doing the math to find the current.). 

Check out this and see if you have a reasonable input......then we can move to the next step.

It's a busy time of year for me.....I need to get back on my experiments on above unity!!!

I hope this helps.

Donovan

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Kritischer posted this 02 June 2023

Something else I wanted to poll the community on.

I had substituted  1N5822 for the 1N5819 on this build so far after having tried first using the MUR8100E without success.

They both (1N5819 / 1N5822) look like they are designed with low forward voltage drop and fast switching times.

The main difference appears to be that the 5822 has a higher forward current rating (and larger size)

 

 

I did order the 1N5819's and they should arrive tomorrow. 

I believe Chris and ISLab said this should be ok, but since I didn't precisely follow the BOM for this part I wanted to see if there are any glaring inconsistencies that I missed. Just trying to rule out anything I can.

I'd love to find out that my main problem is related to not bringing in the Gnd terminal from the back of the signal generator.

On the topic of heat sinks:

I attached this one to the SiC MOSFET (C3M0065090D) using a compressible graphite adhesive film.

For what it's worth, this stuff is a far better thermal interface material than CPU grease or even the best thermal epoxies.

I've seen thermal epoxies with thermal conductivity below 1 W/mK.

The best epoxy I've ever seen (from Dupont) had ~12 W/mK.

These sheets conduct heat hundreds of times faster and are clean and simple to worth with.

 

Thinking about heat I did have observation I made last night that I didn't think to document.
We know the 7805 gets hot.
Today I located a 7.5VDC supply to replace the 12V. which should help. Sinks for the 7805's are on the way.

I had noticed that the IL610 was also getting warm to the touch but not nearly as hot as the 7805.

I'm not sure if it was due to passive heat conduction across the copper traces (from the 7805) or if I managed to toast 2x IL610's using 10V output from the signal generator. I just thought it was worth mentioning that the IL610 was starting to get a bit warm after being on for 45mins or so.

If this question doesn't get addressed I will tend to assume this is normal.

Otherwise, happy Friday to everyone reading this. I hope you and your loved ones are all in good heath and spirits.

 

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Kritischer posted this 02 June 2023

Thank you for weighing in Donovan. I appreciate you.

For the heck of it I also inspected the DIP socket pins (between the board and socket housing) to make sure I didn't do something like use too much solder and shorted across them.

For things that require verification/proof, I can absolutely supply photos or scope images when I'm back on the bench.  Frustration shuts down the frame of mind necessary for troubleshooting. I'm committed to this project, but I struggle to not get upset with my limitations.

you say you have DC PS voltage on the 610, good, but you can check this with the scope ground on the PS  ground, and probe both the supply pin and the ground pin on the 610.

I had used a multimeter to verify 100% that the IL610 has ~5.5V on pin 8.

I  have not used the multimeter or scope with the Gnd of the 12V supply as a reference, but I will anyway and will report.

 

ground the scope probe on your generator and probe both pins 2 and 3 and see what you get on each pin.

Using the scope (even with no ref) on pin 2,3, and either side of R1 I do see the signal from the generator. I'm positive of this because this is the only place I see anything....

ground the scope probe on your generator

This isn't something I've done yet and you mentioning it makes me think I'm missing something important.

I'm using a 12V wall wart (from a TP Link router) as the supply for the switching.

I think I'm technically using a separate supply reference (signal generator) into the PWM negitive input.

The back of the signal generator has a Gnd terminal.

Should I attach a wire from the rear of the signal generator (Gnd) to the negative terminal that supplies 12V to the board?

Is it possible that the 12V supply has it's own isolation and not connecting the signal generator to Gnd would cause a problem in some instances (despite reading 5V on the IL610)?

after we see whats on the two input pins of the 610, we can proceed

I will provide a scope screenshot/photo of this.

To date, I have never seen anything coming out of the IL610 on pin 6. That's on 2 devices.

I'll consider and try anything. I can supply 7.5-12VDC another way, I can build up a new board. I'm still a bit suspicious of the 100uF caps because their ESR is a little high compared to some others, but I haven't changed those out yet.

The feedback I'm getting here is thoughtful and genuine. My real problems start when I run out of things to try and everyone else runs out of ideas based on their experiences.

donovan posted this 02 June 2023

Hi, all!

If this has not been solved yet, may I get involved!

My day job is an electronics technician, troubleshooting down to the component level.

So, what I would do:

-just use 1 scope channel in the beginning. with nothing connected to the MOSFET O/P

-You say you have DC PS voltage on the 610, good, but you can check this with the scope ground on the PS  ground, and probe both the supply pin and the ground pin on the 610.

-next, ground the scope probe on your generator and probe both pins 2 and 3 and see what you get on each pin.  doing some quick math in my head, you should see about signal amplitude across these pins aroiund .25-.5V (anyone can correct me here). (We could use diff probes here to get this measurement, but no need to make things complicated when a little math in our heads and some careful measurements will get the job done.)

-after we see whats on the two input pins of the 610, we can proceed...

Donovan

 

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Chris posted this 02 June 2023

Hey Thay,

The MCP1403 datasheet explains:

 

So, if one uses the wrong Chip, then yes this may be a possibility, but if one has the MCP1403, then this is not the case.

@Kritischer, stick with it, you will figure out what the problem is, remove the MCP1403 and scope the signal, you should see the Signal input there from the IL610?

Best Wishes,

   Chris

 

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thaelin posted this 02 June 2023

I may be wrong but on the MPC1403 you have 2 and 4 as inputs the same. Output has 5 and 7 together. One side is inverting and the other is not. That may cause buss contention, a high and a low at the same time. Try using just 5 or 7 alone depending on which way you want the output. Inverted or not.  

thay

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Kritischer posted this 02 June 2023

I replaced the offending1N4746, this time with the diode in the proper position.

Also replaced the MCP1403.

The IL610 was replaced last night.

Measuring 5V on pin 8 of the IL610 and 15V on pin 6 of the MCP.

I set a single probe set to 10x (probe and scope) on pin 2 of the IL610 to verify input signal.

I can't see anything out of pin6 of the IL610, using pin 5 as the reference.

I tried probing on the other side of the 1K resistor R2 to the same null effect.

I see nothing matching the input signal (1khz 10% Duty) on pin 5 of the MCP1403 using pins 1,8, and 3 as a reference.

3V supply running through the MOSFET, with the MOSFET on the high side of the inductive load.

Probed the gate with respect to pins 1,3,8 of the MCP, and with respect to the Gnd side of the 10K resistor R5

Probed the secondary with no reference.

I hit auto calibrate after changing probe positions. I'm running a diagnostic on the scope and am going to reset to factory defaults.

Despite checking continuity of the 2 dip package pins to the bottom of the board I might replace them

I feel like it's time to replace other parts but it's getting late.

Dammit. I really thought I had it.

 

 

 

 

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Kritischer posted this 01 June 2023

Ah ha. I believe D2 (1N4746) labeled D3 on the board was installed polarity reversed.

You can see here that the line is facing the ground side...

 

..which is wrong compared to the diagram.

 

I'm replacing it now and am feeling optimistic about testing later. Fingers crossed.

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Kritischer posted this 01 June 2023

 

Without clearer images, the Zener Diode by the IL610 appears to be backwards, but it is hard to tell because the images are not clear.

The image shown was from someone else's build but I'm pretty sure you knew that and are just using it for illustrative purposes. In any case I can provide a better photo.

Full top view

top full

 

Had you meant the (red arrow) Zener near the IL610 or the (yellow arrow) Zener that was circled in your example?

The parts line up with the white silk layer on the board. Is that wrong? I would love for one of these to be wrong.

 

Here's a better side view where the direction of D2 (1N4746), D3 (1N5822), and D4 (1N5408) 

side full

 

Check the IC Ve+ Power, that's the first step. Although you said you have the right voltage on the 610, check it all again.

Will do ASAP.

Your Output Signal should be exactly the same as your Input Signal! There is something wrong if you cant see that!

Understood and clarified.

 

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Chris posted this 01 June 2023

Hey Kritischer,

Check IC Power, then Signal, and see where the failure occurs.

Without clearer images, the Zener Diode by the IL610 appears to be backwards, but it is hard to tell because the images are not clear.

 

Check the IC Ve+ Power, that's the first step. Although you said you have the right voltage on the 610, check it all again.

Your Output Signal should be exactly the same as your Input Signal! There is something wrong if you cant see that!

Follow 100% the schematic, and it will work!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Kritischer posted this 01 June 2023

I swapped out the IL610 after putting a 1kΩ in series between the signal generator and the IL610 input. Actually I tried with and without the additional 1kΩ with no real change.

Should I be paranoid about the ESR of caps? I did get the 100uF caps from Amazon.

I have one of these ESR Meters and for a 100uF (25V) it calls out a max ESR of .32Ω.
The green caps from Amazon read ~.28Ω.
By contrast I located a kit of capacitors. The ones in that kit are around ~.2Ω.

Think they are worth changing? "It can't hurt", right?

I know ESR can matter, and this seems like it might be one of those applications where it might. 

The signals I've been seeing are really noisy. At best  (probing Drain and Source) I was able to see the waveform change when adjusting the pulse width, but the voltage max was a few hundred mV.

I'm out of ideas. In the absence of new ones I might change the MOSFET but not before verifying the value of each component and location against the diagram.

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Kritischer posted this 01 June 2023

I'm grateful that you guys see fit to reply at all. Thank you again @ISLab once again for the thoughtful comments and to you @Chris for removing the image filesize cap.

But note the correction to specs of D5 which should be 1N4733

I did catch that one and I am using the 1N4733 as indicated.

D1, D3, D11 are all IN5819 from the parts list. Make sure the MUR8100E specs match. But this may not be critical.

I was inclined to agree, but I ordered 1N5819 today to be consistent with the recommendation.
I located a stash of 1N5822 that looks like it might be in the same "58" family as the 5819 except that (at a glance) it has a higher current rating and so the leads have more meat on them. Because I couldn't wait, I ground them down so they would fit on the board and replaced the MUR8100E . Maybe I could have drilled, but sometimes when I do things it's because I don't know any better. The result should be the same.

Here's a few photos after re-working.

 

1

The D2 and D3 marking on screen print have been exchanged (not reversed, which would mean reversal of direction!)

Understood and thank you. Semantics matter. I swapped/exchanged them and maintained reverence of their Gnd terminal. 

The input diode where the signal first enters the circuit is marked D11 in the diagram but is listed as D6 in the parts list. [And D6 is same part number as D1.] I hope it is clear now. 😇

Thanks for putting up with the confusion. Quite clear.

 

The only other bit (that probably isn't a cause for concern) is that on the original Quad circuit it calls for 47uF Electrolytic caps connected to the 7805 (C1,C2 of original quad image) but I see 100uF (C4,C5) being used on the image immediately above.

The original quad image also calls for 47uF Electrolytic as C4 instead of 470uF as C6. 

If you read the full thread, you will find that Chris and others have tweaked the circuit to further optimize it. Best to stay with what they have settled on finally.

I'm positive it in there as you say. In any case the caps here are absolutely the 100uF

 

I connected the + output of the mosfet to the + of the PSU. The - of the PSU goes to the + of the primary coil. The output of the primary coil returns to the gnd/source. I only put 1V in.

This may not be enough to overcome the MOSFET internal resistance. You can safely put 3V for initial testing.

Ah ha. I will.

The PWM signal can vary to +10V max.

Please check if your input signal is coming into the pin maked "P". Put a resistor in between to limit current to the 20mA which is the maximum for IL610. Aim for about 10 to 15mA for safety.

The PWM input is going here

For what it's worth, this (BK Precision 4030) is the pulse generator I've been using. 

While set to the "INT RATE" it's 1-10V. With the XTAL it's 0.5-5V.

It didn't occur to me that I might damage the IL610 so I wanted to check.

So with the installed 470Ω limiting resistor, if the input signal was 100% duty and the pulse generator was set 10V max the input current would be 10V/470Ω=21.2mA, correct? Famous last words but it shouldn't be a risk, right?

I'm powering the board with a 12V 1A wall brick.

Your 7805 then needs to dissipate nearly 0.7W. If it gets hot, do consider a heatsink. Or better, reduce your voltage to 7.5V. 

Sinks are inbound arriving tomorrow. I'd like to see if I can get it working with 12V but only for lack of a 7.5V in my drawer. I would change to minimize dissipated heat.

Finally, I would suggest to solder the MOSFET as close to the board as possible (unless you need the extra height for a heatsink). 

The height is indeed for a sink. I can see how close I can get after.

I had problems just by connecting the probes inside the isolated portion because the probe ground was breaking the isolation.

Be careful not to probe the input and output with at the same time since the ground pins will short them and short the isolation!

Test only the output portions with just one probe only while disconnecting from all else. Even then there is the ground loop through the scope. But it should work for basic debugging. Or you can use two probes to form a pseudo-differential probe and use only inside the isolated portion.

OK so it's not just me.

After changing out the UF diodes to the IN5822 I set the other (bench) DC supply to 3V and connected across the primary load. 

Honestly, not a lot has changed. I set the pulse generator to ~10% duty at 100Hz, 1Khz, 10Khz

  1. I verified that the ~5V and ~15V were present where they belonged.
  2. set the scope to 1channel only and probed the gate and used the Gnd side of the 10KΩ (R5) as a Ref and didn't see anything resembling the input signal. I varied the pulse width to see if there was a change. It's like nothing makes a difference. Does this break isolation? I tried with no Ref but as you can imagine that was worse.
  3. probed across drain and sink and varied the pulse width. Nothing notable. Like always I tried to auto trigger.
  4. I can see the signal going into pin 2 of the IL610, but I wasn't able to capture the output on pin 6 when using the Gnd pins 5/7 as a probe reference 
  5. Got paranoid about the DIP sockets, turned everything off, did continuity checks from the top of all pins of each IC to the bottom of the PCB solder joint. About .5Ω for all of them (including probes) so I'm assuming there is proper contact.

For what it's worth I have the scope set to trigger on ch1 rising edge and it's set to DC coupling. If you think my issue is related to a scope setting I can try to rule it out, but since I can see the PWM signal from the benchtop generator I didn't think it was worth trying to troubleshoot the scope settings.

For context I had been using this thing with a different coil setup and I was able to get a light to glow. It seemed to have better isolation than this other thing. In both of those cases I was able to probe the coils and see significant voltage from a 5V drop across the primary. While I'm convinced this AU sanctioned switching circuit is the right tool, clearly I have work to do.

I do have access to HV differential probes and a high speed current monitor. I can break them out whenever but I don't think I'm there yet.

Just for my sanity I'm going to try another IL610. I can't reconcile why I'm not seeing anything on output pin 6.

 

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ISLab posted this 28 May 2023

Hi Kritischer,

Sorry I've been out of touch for a while, and just saw your posts. Glad my notes were helpful.

From what I can see in what I think is being referred to as the circuit diagram below:
D1, D3, and D11 are all the UF Recovery Diodes. Can someone please confirm?
D2, D4, and D5 are the Zener's that have have PN specs available. 

Yes. But note the correction to specs of D5 which should be 1N4733 (5V1 Zener) and not as in the diagram or the specs (where it is wrongly shown as IN4734).

D1, D3, D11 are all IN5819 from the parts list. Make sure the MUR8100E specs match. But this may not be critical. Note:

IN5819 Diode was designed as a low forward voltage drop, low switching noise, and a high surge current capability. The 1N5819 was designed as a Schottky Diode offering a forward voltage drop of 600mV and a forward current of 1A. Its low forward voltage drop makes it ideal for reverse polarity protection circuits. The Schottky diode also features faster switching speeds and hence can be used in high-frequency switching circuits.

You asked:

If D2 and D3 are reversed on the board itself, what is labeled as "D3" should be the 1N4746 and what is labeled as "D2" should be the UF Diode.

Yes. The D2 and D3 marking on screen print have been exchanged (not reversed, which would mean reversal of direction!)

D2 should be next to the C6 470uF.

It's the "they should have been the same D1 or D6 as in the parts list, or D11 as in the circuit diagram" that is tripping my ambiguity sub-routine. I don't know what to make of the statement.

The input diode where the signal first enters the circuit is marked D11 in the diagram but is listed as D6 in the parts list. [And D6 is same part number as D1.] I hope it is clear now. 😇

The only other bit (that probably isn't a cause for concern) is that on the original Quad circuit it calls for 47uF Electrolytic caps connected to the 7805 (C1,C2 of original quad image) but I see 100uF (C4,C5) being used on the image immediately above.

The original quad image also calls for 47uF Electrolytic as C4 instead of 470uF as C6. 

If you read the full thread, you will find that Chris and others have tweaked the circuit to further optimise it. Best to stay with what they have settled on finally.

I connected the + output of the mosfet to the + of the PSU. The - of the PSU goes to the + of the primary coil. The output of the primary coil returns to the gnd/source. I only put 1V in.

This may not be enough to overcome the MOSFET internal resistance. You can safely put 3V for initial testing.

Maybe all the isolation makes it tricky to probe

Yes! I had problems just by connecting the probes inside the isolated portion because the probe ground was breaking the isolation.

Be careful not to probe the input and output with at the same time since the ground pins will short them and short the isolation!

Test only the output portions with just one probe only while disconnecting from all else. Even then there is the ground loop through the scope. But it should work for basic debugging. Or you can use two probes to form a pseudo-differential probe and use only inside the isolated portion.

I did look at your diodes and other parts as closely as was possible and they seem fine as far as I could make out.

The PWM signal can vary to +10V max.

Please check if your input signal is coming into the pin maked "P". Put a resistor in between to limit current to the 20mA which is the maximum for IL610. Aim for about 10 to 15mA for safety.

I'm powering the board with a 12V 1A wall brick.

Your 7805 then needs to dissipate nealy 0.7W. If it gets hot, do consider a heatsink. Or better, reduce your voltage to 7.5V. In the long run I would recommend getting am isolated dual variable power supply: one for the switching and other circuits and the other for the pulsing. You will want independent and accurate controls on both.

Finally, I would suggest to solder the MOSFET as close to the board as possible (unless you need the extra height for a heatsink). (Not critical though)

Hope this helps. 😇

Chris posted this 27 May 2023

Hey Kritischer,

Images must be under 2Mb, currently your images are around 3.2Mb. There is a Notification that does take place, but its hard to spot if one is not looking for it, its a job I need to get on to! Edit: This is now fixed.

If you shrink Images down, then you will be able to add them fine.

Nice work, good to see!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Kritischer posted this 27 May 2023

I managed to attach images to the previous post, but when I viewed one of them it appeared rotated. I don’t believe they are inverted, just not the way I'd prefer to present them. Site features here are spotty for me but that's not a judgment. It's kind of part of the charm and barrier to entry. I'm grateful that here exists. I just got frustrated I couldn't communicate thoroughly enough with inline photos.

 

I can't wait to get back to the bench, and I welcome your feedback.

Kritischer posted this 27 May 2023

Image upload still broken. I tried the file manager, the upload image option, and copy paste. There is a problem in each case. I don't have time to try again now.

 

Attached Files

Kritischer posted this 27 May 2023

I'm not able to add images to this post. I disabled ad blockers etc and use Brave Broweser.

I'll try later but I just spent a while typing this up and I need to get out of here.

I used

MUR8100E for the UF Diodes

C3M0065090D for the power mosfet

I'm showing my coils here but any specific measurements would naturally go in a dedicated post.

I'm powering the board with a 12V 1A wall brick. I have a bench pulse generator on the left of the Denon.

I do see 15.4V or so on pin 6 of the MCP1403. The PWM signal can vary to +10V max.

I triple checked the direction of all the diodes but another set of eyes wouldn't do any harm.

It got late as I started looking at signals and I'm having a hard time watching the Gate.

I followed it back to pin 5 of the MCP but I'm not seeing a clean signal.

I'm even having a hard time seeing the signal on pin 6 of the IL610.

I'm sending in a 1khz signal 10% to start. 

I connected the + output of the mosfet to the + of the PSU. The - of the PSU goes to the + of the primary coil. The output of the primary coil returns to the gnd/source. I only put 1V in.

Maybe all the isolation makes it tricky to probe, but admittedly I did just get this scope and I'm getting used to it. I can see the calibration signal no problem. I can see the PWM input from the generator no problem. Everything inside the circuit I'm having issues seeing. 

I'm going to get some sleep and get back to this when I can. Realistically it will be days. I felt good about following the diagram once I had boards in hand, and it went together nice on a hot plate to preheat for hand soldering. Even so something must be wrong. I'm going to spend some time on the mosfet datasheet. I bought those a while ago and wanted to see if they would work here. Besides that I'm out of things to try.

Hopefully after some rest and a better understanding of where the test points are I'll make some progress.

Thank you for doing what you do.

 

 

Kritischer posted this 25 May 2023

Boards and parts are in. I will be assembling starting tonight. 

Thank you tremendously you for continued encouragement.

Despite the great feedback by ISLab, I was hoping for a sanity check on the following

  • The markings of D2 and D3 are interchanged in all four channels
  • The first Diodes incoming from the PSU are marked D1, D2, D3, D4 respectively on the four channels, when they should have been the same D1 or D6 as in the parts list, or D11 as in the circuit diagram.

From what I can see in what I think is being referred to as the circuit diagram below:
D1, D3, and D11 are all the UF Recovery Diodes. Can someone please confirm?
D2, D4, and D5 are the Zener's that have have PN specs available. 

If D2 and D3 are reversed on the board itself, what is labeled as "D3" should be the 1N4746 and what is labeled as "D2" should be the UF Diode.

It's the "they should have been the same D1 or D6 as in the parts list, or D11 as in the circuit diagram" that is tripping my ambiguity sub-routine. I don't know what to make of the statement.

The only other bit (that probably isn't a cause for concern) is that on the original Quad circuit it calls for 47uF Electrolytic caps connected to the 7805 (C1,C2 of original quad image) but I see 100uF (C4,C5) being used on the image immediately above.

The original quad image also calls for 47uF Electrolytic as C4 instead of 470uF as C6. 

Regardless, I'm certainly going to follow the schematic while placing parts and will absolutely pay attention to diode direction.

Chris posted this 20 May 2023

Hey Kritischer,

We are here for you Mate! I will do the best I can to help where I can, but yes, I agree, to a degree, there must be a frame of mind gained, to be able to move into a new world!

The Power to become Self Sufficient, in so many ways, it is each and everyone of ours, and the path forward is one we can only take by Choice. 

We are here for you mate!

I posted this thread many years ago to give you all the step forward, that took me so long to achieve, because a good reliable Switching System is a very difficult task to achieve unless one has a very good EE Knowledge.

Best Wishes, and good to know you're still here with us!

   Chris

Kritischer posted this 19 May 2023

Thank you @ISLab for clarifying the file format issue and summarizing the component naming issue. I've got boards on order and will take my time to assemble and test.

I've been wanting to post my build and issues but I know that comments will reflect what has been said time and time again to others.

I'm convinced that my troubles are for lack of proper switching isolation. I've taken several breaks from my build since 2019 because I can't seem to get it right even with all the parts I've accumulated. I don't know why it's been so difficult for me. It might be analysis paralysis with there seemingly being so many options for a circuit. It might be that I'm afraid to succeed or don't feel like I deserve to. Ether way I just want a switching circuit and I'll do anything at this point. Thank you for doing what you do.

 

ISLab posted this 09 February 2023

Thank you Chris! This is a very valuable gift from you to the entire Over-Unity researchers community -- one more among so many others!

I wish someone on this forum had told me right at the beginning to start by building this instead of making simple but limited circuits to experiment with.

 

So let me do my part here:

To all those on this forum who are serious about long-term research and experimentation, please make this device your base for switching system, even if initially this requires additional expense and time to build. You will save yourself many hours (or rather many months!) of avoidable problems and inconveniences.

You absolutely need a fully isolated system and, depending on your line of experimentation, may need anything from one to four of them.

I've made mine recently and I really wish I had started with this from the beginning! 😊

 

Tips for the new builder

I'm also sharing a few points that will be helpful for the new builder, based on my recent experience in building this.

  • Take the latest Gerber files as shared by Chris above. But these will no more work as they are on new Gerber viewers or PCB makers, since the Gerber files definitions were revised since that version of the software used to make these was released. In particular, the header code as present in these files is now obsolete. The KiCad Gerber viewer gives error message:

Invalid GERBER format command 'D' at line 2: "%FSDAX23Y23*%"

You can ignore this normally. But if you want to remove the error, then edit the first line (as above) and replace "D" by "L", so that the line becomes: "%FSLAX23Y23*%".

  • Most current PCB makers require the file names extensions to follow the new naming convention: TOP.GTL, BOTTOM.GBL, TOPMASK.GTS, BOTTOMMASK.GBS, TOPSILK.GTO, BOTTOMSILK.GBO, DRILL.DRL, where the extension must correspond to the kind of content in the file, but the file names can all be the same. So:

With these two corrections you will have no problems viewing or uploading for PCB manufacture.

When you place the components, note that the screen markings (on the version 3 boards) have two mistakes:

  • The markings of D2 and D3 are interchanged in all four channels
  • The first Diodes incoming from the PSU are marked D1, D2, D3, D4 respectively on the four channels, when they should have been the same D1 or D6 as in the parts list, or D11 as in the circuit diagram.
  • D5 is wrongly named both in the circuit diagram and in the parts list, and should actually be: 1N4733 (5V1 Zener)

As Chris said, when in doubt, follow the circuit diagram.

 

I hope these notes help you and save you some avoidable struggles.

Chris posted this 09 February 2023

Hi ISLab,

Currently: 5N3003, which is obsolete.

Many use the Cree Wolfspeed Mosfets, very good they are! You want  very low RDSON, as low as possible.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

ISLab posted this 08 February 2023

Hi Chris, what is the MOSFET that you use with this?

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Chris posted this 07 February 2023

Hey Guys,

I want to make this perfectly clear to the Community, the same Community that is trying to discredit this Circuit, the small few, that this Circuit was designed by Aero Space Engineers, with a combined experience of more than 30 Years.

Its been tested by many! Including Myself for many years!

 

The only problems that anyone may have, is installing inferior parts or components that are not correct.

This is truly the best Circuit any Serious Researcher can have in their Toolkit!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Plasmonic posted this 07 February 2023

Hey Chris,

PCBs are on the way, just gotta get all the components ordered.  Hopefully whatever changed on the JLCPCB end to let me order is correct but either way I think it can be worked through.

👍

Matt

Chris posted this 23 January 2023

Hi ISLab,

5V1, don't over voltage the IC! 

Best Wishes,

   Chris

ISLab posted this 23 January 2023

If you have any problems

Follow 100% the Circuit:

Hi Chris,

I've just received my boards and am soldering. In the parts list posted earlier there a serious differences in value from this circuit: D5 is 1N4734 in the circuit and 1N4733 in the parts list. Only 1N4733 is 5V1; the other is 5V6 (according to https://www.futurlec.com/Diodes/1N4733.shtml).

Which one to use?

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Chris posted this 13 January 2023

Hello ISLab,

Your questions:

Hi @Chris, does this work with High Side operation also? Or does it need to be modified with bootstrap circuit for that?

 

Yes, no, not sure how familiar with Electronics you are, but any Isolated driver will work Low side and also High Side. This circuit is fully isolated, as you can see by studding the Circuit, and High Speed!

 

Also, you gave links for PWM circuits here:

Don't forget, we have projects for Input PWM also:

Several of these threads are missing.

 

Yeah, some disgruntled Ex-Members have gone through and deleted their threads. It does not matter, because they are not needed and really are 99.9% irrelevant because this thread overrides the ones that have been deleted. This was done before the Delete button had the timeout implemented.

In retrospect what would you recommend as PWM for long-term work?

 

Of course, any serious Researcher and Experimenter needs a Toolkit that is relevant for the work that they are doing, so its a decision that only you can make, not one for anyone else to make!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

ISLab posted this 13 January 2023

Hi @Chris, does this work with High Side operation also? Or does it need to be modified with bootstrap circuit for that?

 

Also, you gave links for PWM circuits here:

Don't forget, we have projects for Input PWM also:

Several of these threads are missing.

In retrospect what would you recommend as PWM for long-term work?

Chris posted this 08 October 2022

Hello Electrondiger,

Strip the PCB down, remove IC's, Diodes and Fets. Add one part at a time, checking for Functionality, making sure you have Vcc and Signal through the PCB as you add components back.

See IC Datasheets for Pin Outs.

Failing troubleshooting, you can download the PCB files on this thread and get a PCB made and delivered.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

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electrondiger posted this 08 October 2022

Hy

Input 12V DC1A power suply conected to pcb:       

D1 0.0V                  C1 0.0V                                 

D2 0.0V                  C2 5.49V

D3 0.0V                  C3 15.56V

D4 1.38V                C4 11.74V

D5 -5.45V ?            C5 5.0V

D6 0.3V                  C6 15.59V

After i conect signal generator C1 is 4.7. Signal generator is set from 0 to 6Mhz and 12 v out, and it is giving 5.45 on the conection block to the pcb board.

If you ask me this signal generator is wierd. I mesured diodes and capacitors with multimeter negative side to negative side of diode or capacitor and positive side to positive site of diode or capacitor.

D5 is negative this is strange and 20 v out form signal generator puts only 5.45 from the leads this is strange too. Signal generator JDS6600. Run it on CH1 and CH2, duty cycle 50%.

RK-0515  puts 15.56 from pin 5 and 7. Pin 7 is negative 5 is positive.

7805 is warm after 5 minutes to the touch of the hand.

Input wawe form is square pulse. Square is wawe witch goes from + to- in this generator so i used pulse witch is 0 to + in sqare form.

Thanks

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