The link between LL resonance and the 3 coils configuration

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cd_sharp posted this 26 June 2018

Hi, everyone! I'll try my best to find out how to practically use the LL resonance between two coils in a POC 3 coils configuration.

The basic circuit I have in mind is this:

The single coil is L1, L2 is on top and L3 is at the bottom, on the other leg.

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cd_sharp posted this 26 June 2018

All the coils are almost equal as wire length and inductance.

Input voltage is 12V. According to the theory, a voltage should be induced in L3 whenever there is current flowing through L1.

The current through L3 is blue, the current through L2 is yellow and the FG voltage is magenta. Let's see what happens:

Notice that the current through L3 flows during the time the MOSFET is off.

What if I disconnect L2?

So, L2 must be off while current flows through L3. It's about timing, we need to let the current through L3 flow, we need to let it's magnetic field grow without the magnetic field of L2 opposing.

I need opinions because I really wish to take this further and obtain some practical results.

Vidura posted this 26 June 2018

Hi cd , mayby you should check the connection on L2, it seems strange that ther is no reacting to the input visible. There are many members which have more experience with POC, but I would suggest to test different positioning also which seems to have effect of changing the timing.

Chris posted this 26 June 2018

@CD - Increase your Off Time to 75%

Polarity of Blue Trace appears to be correct.

Polarity of Yellow appears its not correct, try flipping Drain and Source Terminals over.

Mosfetts and Diodes can very easily be damaged, so keep checking them for failure, especially if you're not getting what you should.

   Chris

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Sorry if I have not expressed very clear my suggestion, I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil. If you have watched the video I posted in the finding the frequency of circuit-thread you can observe that the timings between the output coils can be altered easyli by adjustment of frequency and dutycycle

Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Sorry if I have not expressed very clear my suggestion, I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil. If you have watched the video I posted in the finding the frequency of circuit-thread you can observe that the timings between the output coils can be altered easyli by adjustment of frequency and dutycycle

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

@CD - Increase your Off Time to 75%

Duty cycle is already 25%.

Polarity of Yellow appears its not correct, try flipping Drain and Source Terminals over.

I'll try.

I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil

I cannot slide them, the 2 bobbins cover the entire free space.

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

I'm not sure what was wrong. Anyway, I did the entire circuit again and here are the results:

If I change the polarity of L2, the LL resonance effect diminishes :

There are a few questions that I cannot answer:

How can the yellow trace go negative, against the diode?

If the interaction between L1 and L3 "generates" current, can we use somehow L2 to "generate" some voltage? Maybe a classical transformer interaction between L2 and L3 can cause the voltage over the load go up. Maybe putting half the number of turns in L2 can do the trick.

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Have you checked the diode? You could try to vary frequency and duty cycle if you find any resonant response.

Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

This prototyping boards you are using sometimes fail a conection when the clips wears out, it has happened to me, maybe if you rebuild on a different location of the board you get the expected results.

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

Have you checked the diode?

Yes.

You could try to vary frequency and duty cycle if you find any resonant response

I always do. The resonant response is the long lasting current flow.

Please give me your answers to these questions:

How can the yellow trace go negative, against the diode?

If the interaction between L1 and L3 "generates" current, can we use somehow L2 to "generate" some voltage? We have current and we need some voltage rising.

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Hello, cd_sharp Your first question I sincerely don't know the answer, it might be very small power levels that the pn junction of the diode do not saturat. Regarding the output it should be possible to get voltage and current from a resonant circuit by altering the fase angle, unbalance the sistem, not by conventional transformer effect.Do you have a notable output on the load? Observing your image's I saw the scope was at 20mv/div onthe first pictures then you switched to 2mv/div on the yellow trace? What,s the period, I never worked with a digital device and could not interpret all the readings. It could help to rise the power levels a bit I guess to get a more notably effe on the POC s.

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Chris posted this 27 June 2018

Hey Guys,

Well the paid Trolls, that have Zero Control or influence here, would be getting a little nervous about now!

What are Diode Basics:

  • A Voltage is required for a Diode to conduct, normally around 0.5 of a Volt.
  • Diodes Conduct in one Direction only, unless damaged or in the case of a Zener Diode.
  • A Reverse polarity on the Diode will stop the Diode from Conducting but can damage if over rating.

 

 

Up the Input Voltage and the Diode starts to Conduct:

 

 

Notice the Current is Positive, it is always above the Zero Graticule Line on the Oscilloscope Graph! Several ways exist to get the Current on the Negative Side of the Graph:

 

 

Of course Probe Invert will also give you a Negative Current reading.

However, there is a situation, the Current Reading always stays Negative. It is simply Negative Current, not Positive Current. This is often where the Voltage is in one polarity and the Current in the other, not as convention will have you believe!

   Chris

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Marathonman posted this 27 June 2018

I am just curious but the fields build up in the coils but the diodes are there to not let it dissipate correct. the Bemf is there but can not conduct the other way.

would this still cause a spike in your readings even if not dissipating.

Marathonman

Chris posted this 27 June 2018

I am just curious but the fields build up in the coils but the diodes are there to not let it dissipate correct. the Bemf is there but can not conduct the other way.

would this still cause a spike in your readings even if not dissipating.

Marathonman

Hey MM - What causes a Spike? Or what causes any sort of reading whatsoever?

Interactions between the Coils and the Electromagnetic Fields changing in Time.

The Diodes are only a Blocking Device, or a One Way device. All we are doing is isolating the Interactions between the Coils in Time and our results are fantastic and unusual!

No other forum anywhere has investigated this to any sort of understanding, we are light years ahead of the rest!

   Chris

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Wistiti posted this 28 June 2018

Hehehe!!! Nice job guys! In some of my experiment, it take a delay, short one but when the circuit is running « free » and i connect a load on it, the effect are not instant. The rigning sound change from lower to a higher pitch and then the bulb lit... like if the coil have to self adjust.

Do you experiment the same?

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cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

Do you have a notable output on the load?

No. I have 2x5W bulbs that stay completely off.

Observing your image's I saw the scope was at 20mv/div onthe first pictures then you switched to 2mv/div on the yellow trace?

Yes

What,s the period.

2 ms.

It could help to rise the power levels a bit I guess to get a more notably effe on the POC s

Input voltage is already at 12V, but there is not much current drawn from the power supply, something like 40-50mA.

Do you experiment the same?

Not yet. Sounds very interesting.

cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

This is often where the Voltage is in one polarity and the Current in the other

What? Now I'll spend my entire day trying to understand how can that be and what happens in such a case. Fantastic info.

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Chris posted this 28 June 2018

My Friends,

Leakage Inductance or what I have also termed Loose Coupling is a requirement.

A small gap in the core may sometimes be required, Some Cores are just slugs, no good for this.

Wistiti is right, try various loads, try Gapping your Core or try another Core entirely. You should see a gradual change, the machine adjusts to its load.

 

You can see the Amplitude increase under load.

Right now, we are as a team further ahead collectively than ever before. I am very proud of your successes! Great work and excellent observations!

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

Guys, the only thing that I did not check are the probes. The yellow one was on 10x. The 2 bulbs were also in parallel.

If I leave only the 1.2 W bulb, surprise:

And the power supply shows 0.00A X 12.1V. I'm not sure it's above unity, but it looks like it.

What happens if I replace the 1.2W bulb with a 21W one?

and it draws about 0.03A x 12V, but the bulb is off.

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Vidura posted this 28 June 2018

This looks good cd!! You see the ringing on both traces, there seems to be a interaction between L2 and L3, a kind of feedback, and note the effect is load depending, with the bigger lamp the blue trace shows less vibrating. Regarding input measurement to confirm OU reading I would suggest to block interference with a common mode choke between the device and power supply, eventually double check with a sensible meter .Great experiment!

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Vidura posted this 28 June 2018

The blue and the yellow trace is set in different mV/div range, so maybe it's not that load depending the effect. Could you zoom in to see the trace of the higher frequency ringing? Next you could try to find how to change some parameters to rise the power levels, to get a bigger load lit.

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cd_sharp posted this 29 June 2018

Could you zoom in to see the trace of the higher frequency ringing?

It's just noise. Zoomed in looks like this:

and when powered off and left only with the function generator signal:

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Vidura posted this 29 June 2018

Cd, it's possible that only noise is the cause for the oscillations, but also it could be a interaction between the coils, sometimes the small current from a signal generator is enough to setup a resonant behaviour, it might be worth to keep an eye on it. @Chris have you observed something like that in your experiments?

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cd_sharp posted this 29 June 2018

It's a very good question. I doubt it's anything more than noise.

I think the two currents flowing through L2 and L3 are too steady. Their magnetic fields are almost constant, so they cannot influence each other through EM induction.

I have to try to make them behave like in the MrPreva experiment.

I could try to add a MOSFET on L2 or L3 to delay the switching by 90 or 180 degrees.

I could also try to add some turns on one of them. I'll be back on this.

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Vidura posted this 01 July 2018

It could be a good idea to change the windings, the core material also has to be considered, in mi tests the ferrite shows good performance above 1khz, and for a good output som turns less can give better power at higher frequency.,with a different number of turns on the poc it should be easy to get the same results as the preva experiments.

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cd_sharp posted this 02 July 2018

@Vidura, thanks for the suggestions. I'll reduce the number of turns. The coils are 128 mH which is way too much.

The reactive inductance drastically limits the current.

I'm not ready to give up on this core yet.

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Vidura posted this 02 July 2018

Cd in consideration of core material I did not meaning to give up the core, ferrite is a very useful material ,when I worked with leddrivers I brought it up to nearly 200khz, and the transfer capability is nonlinear, you can get lots of power from relative small cores when rising the frequency, only the windings has to mach also.

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cd_sharp posted this 05 July 2018

Friends, I rewound all the coils with 2mm diameter wire and different number of turns in the 2 POC coils. I also changed the entire wiring to support much greater currents. The bulb is 21 W and draws 0.86A x 12V.

The only strange thing I noticed is the clear negative current that flows for a little while (blue trace):

I'll keep searching for a frequency where the phase drift happens or anything "magic".

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Chris posted this 05 July 2018

@CD - To bring the E.M.F or Voltage, the Difference in Potential up, will also increase the Currents.

Great work as always!

   Chris

Chris posted this 05 July 2018

Hey CD,

This is your experiment, and I do not wish to distract you, but remember our conversations on LCR Resonance and how this can bring on Magnetic Resonance, we saw this in The Mr Preva Experiment.

With few turns, the Distributed Capacitance will be low, Resonance may be in the several hundreds of KHz.

Perhaps adding some Capacitance, to bring down the Resonant Frequency.

Amplitudes always increase at Resonance.

Also, my recent reminder posts on the Sawtooth Wave, its worth studing and understanding why, I have covered several times why we see this wave.

As we continue to learn, more questions arise, but I ask, please be patient. We have covered a lot, and I hope by doing a full review it makes more sense now, that many many questions have been answered already.

Our small cheap and extremely simple experiments are already showing very interesting results.

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 2 weeks ago

Hey, everybody,

Long time of absence, but not without experimenting.

I tried this experiment using L2 and L3 with some big random values ( lots of turns, I don't know the inductance, I had them from some other experiment ). I did not understand why this effect does not show up any more. I thought I forgot something important about this experiment.

And I did. That's why I'm writing this post, to have the data in one place.

I replaced L2 with a coil that's similar to L1 and I disconnected L3. This is it, the effect is back on L2.

This effect depends on coils inductance or wire length. L2 and L3 must be L1 x n, where n >= 1.

What a beautiful and harmonic effect nature show us!

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