The link between LL resonance and the 3 coils configuration

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cd_sharp posted this 26 June 2018

Hi, everyone! I'll try my best to find out how to practically use the LL resonance between two coils in a POC 3 coils configuration.

The basic circuit I have in mind is this:

The single coil is L1, L2 is on top and L3 is at the bottom, on the other leg.

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cd_sharp posted this 26 June 2018

All the coils are almost equal as wire length and inductance.

Input voltage is 12V. According to the theory, a voltage should be induced in L3 whenever there is current flowing through L1.

The current through L3 is blue, the current through L2 is yellow and the FG voltage is magenta. Let's see what happens:

Notice that the current through L3 flows during the time the MOSFET is off.

What if I disconnect L2?

So, L2 must be off while current flows through L3. It's about timing, we need to let the current through L3 flow, we need to let it's magnetic field grow without the magnetic field of L2 opposing.

I need opinions because I really wish to take this further and obtain some practical results.

Vidura posted this 26 June 2018

Hi cd , mayby you should check the connection on L2, it seems strange that ther is no reacting to the input visible. There are many members which have more experience with POC, but I would suggest to test different positioning also which seems to have effect of changing the timing.

Chris posted this 26 June 2018

@CD - Increase your Off Time to 75%

Polarity of Blue Trace appears to be correct.

Polarity of Yellow appears its not correct, try flipping Drain and Source Terminals over.

Mosfetts and Diodes can very easily be damaged, so keep checking them for failure, especially if you're not getting what you should.

   Chris

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Sorry if I have not expressed very clear my suggestion, I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil. If you have watched the video I posted in the finding the frequency of circuit-thread you can observe that the timings between the output coils can be altered easyli by adjustment of frequency and dutycycle

Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Sorry if I have not expressed very clear my suggestion, I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil. If you have watched the video I posted in the finding the frequency of circuit-thread you can observe that the timings between the output coils can be altered easyli by adjustment of frequency and dutycycle

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

@CD - Increase your Off Time to 75%

Duty cycle is already 25%.

Polarity of Yellow appears its not correct, try flipping Drain and Source Terminals over.

I'll try.

I refered with the positioning of the coils to test with narrow moveable coil(s) ,if tere is any response to a resonant effect,when sliding a coil

I cannot slide them, the 2 bobbins cover the entire free space.

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

I'm not sure what was wrong. Anyway, I did the entire circuit again and here are the results:

If I change the polarity of L2, the LL resonance effect diminishes :

There are a few questions that I cannot answer:

How can the yellow trace go negative, against the diode?

If the interaction between L1 and L3 "generates" current, can we use somehow L2 to "generate" some voltage? Maybe a classical transformer interaction between L2 and L3 can cause the voltage over the load go up. Maybe putting half the number of turns in L2 can do the trick.

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Have you checked the diode? You could try to vary frequency and duty cycle if you find any resonant response.

Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

This prototyping boards you are using sometimes fail a conection when the clips wears out, it has happened to me, maybe if you rebuild on a different location of the board you get the expected results.

cd_sharp posted this 27 June 2018

Have you checked the diode?

Yes.

You could try to vary frequency and duty cycle if you find any resonant response

I always do. The resonant response is the long lasting current flow.

Please give me your answers to these questions:

How can the yellow trace go negative, against the diode?

If the interaction between L1 and L3 "generates" current, can we use somehow L2 to "generate" some voltage? We have current and we need some voltage rising.

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Vidura posted this 27 June 2018

Hello, cd_sharp Your first question I sincerely don't know the answer, it might be very small power levels that the pn junction of the diode do not saturat. Regarding the output it should be possible to get voltage and current from a resonant circuit by altering the fase angle, unbalance the sistem, not by conventional transformer effect.Do you have a notable output on the load? Observing your image's I saw the scope was at 20mv/div onthe first pictures then you switched to 2mv/div on the yellow trace? What,s the period, I never worked with a digital device and could not interpret all the readings. It could help to rise the power levels a bit I guess to get a more notably effe on the POC s.

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Chris posted this 27 June 2018

Hey Guys,

Well the paid Trolls, that have Zero Control or influence here, would be getting a little nervous about now!

What are Diode Basics:

  • A Voltage is required for a Diode to conduct, normally around 0.5 of a Volt.
  • Diodes Conduct in one Direction only, unless damaged or in the case of a Zener Diode.
  • A Reverse polarity on the Diode will stop the Diode from Conducting but can damage if over rating.

 

 

Up the Input Voltage and the Diode starts to Conduct:

 

 

Notice the Current is Positive, it is always above the Zero Graticule Line on the Oscilloscope Graph! Several ways exist to get the Current on the Negative Side of the Graph:

 

 

Of course Probe Invert will also give you a Negative Current reading.

However, there is a situation, the Current Reading always stays Negative. It is simply Negative Current, not Positive Current. This is often where the Voltage is in one polarity and the Current in the other, not as convention will have you believe!

   Chris

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Marathonman posted this 27 June 2018

I am just curious but the fields build up in the coils but the diodes are there to not let it dissipate correct. the Bemf is there but can not conduct the other way.

would this still cause a spike in your readings even if not dissipating.

Marathonman

Chris posted this 27 June 2018

I am just curious but the fields build up in the coils but the diodes are there to not let it dissipate correct. the Bemf is there but can not conduct the other way.

would this still cause a spike in your readings even if not dissipating.

Marathonman

Hey MM - What causes a Spike? Or what causes any sort of reading whatsoever?

Interactions between the Coils and the Electromagnetic Fields changing in Time.

The Diodes are only a Blocking Device, or a One Way device. All we are doing is isolating the Interactions between the Coils in Time and our results are fantastic and unusual!

No other forum anywhere has investigated this to any sort of understanding, we are light years ahead of the rest!

   Chris

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Wistiti posted this 28 June 2018

Hehehe!!! Nice job guys! In some of my experiment, it take a delay, short one but when the circuit is running « free » and i connect a load on it, the effect are not instant. The rigning sound change from lower to a higher pitch and then the bulb lit... like if the coil have to self adjust.

Do you experiment the same?

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cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

Do you have a notable output on the load?

No. I have 2x5W bulbs that stay completely off.

Observing your image's I saw the scope was at 20mv/div onthe first pictures then you switched to 2mv/div on the yellow trace?

Yes

What,s the period.

2 ms.

It could help to rise the power levels a bit I guess to get a more notably effe on the POC s

Input voltage is already at 12V, but there is not much current drawn from the power supply, something like 40-50mA.

Do you experiment the same?

Not yet. Sounds very interesting.

cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

This is often where the Voltage is in one polarity and the Current in the other

What? Now I'll spend my entire day trying to understand how can that be and what happens in such a case. Fantastic info.

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Chris posted this 28 June 2018

My Friends,

Leakage Inductance or what I have also termed Loose Coupling is a requirement.

A small gap in the core may sometimes be required, Some Cores are just slugs, no good for this.

Wistiti is right, try various loads, try Gapping your Core or try another Core entirely. You should see a gradual change, the machine adjusts to its load.

 

You can see the Amplitude increase under load.

Right now, we are as a team further ahead collectively than ever before. I am very proud of your successes! Great work and excellent observations!

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 28 June 2018

Guys, the only thing that I did not check are the probes. The yellow one was on 10x. The 2 bulbs were also in parallel.

If I leave only the 1.2 W bulb, surprise:

And the power supply shows 0.00A X 12.1V. I'm not sure it's above unity, but it looks like it.

What happens if I replace the 1.2W bulb with a 21W one?

and it draws about 0.03A x 12V, but the bulb is off.

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Vidura posted this 28 June 2018

This looks good cd!! You see the ringing on both traces, there seems to be a interaction between L2 and L3, a kind of feedback, and note the effect is load depending, with the bigger lamp the blue trace shows less vibrating. Regarding input measurement to confirm OU reading I would suggest to block interference with a common mode choke between the device and power supply, eventually double check with a sensible meter .Great experiment!

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