Surge at the moment of switch closing?

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Zanzal posted this 26 December 2018

Greetings friends,

I have a question and an admission. I have heard that there is some sort of surge or current rush that takes place at the moment of switch closure. Tesla spoke of it as having been a major issue, in his day, resulting in the deaths, others seemed to mention it as being a real thing in passing but unlike the inductive spike which I feel has been researched significantly, I can't think of anything specifically related to switch closure as a distinctive phenomena.

I've done plenty of experiments with the inductive spike that occurs at the moment the switch is opened. Bedini devices, Joule thief circuits and even conventional boost converters take advantage of this. I've looked at these things, both in the simulator and in replications of the above circuits and I can't really think of any instance of noticing a phenomena that is related specifically to switch closure. (I may just not have been paying attention)

Has anyone here ever looked at this? Can some of you share your experiences with this? I'd like to see if there is an experiment that can be done to examine this phenomena. Something separate from the inductive spike that shows a clear illustration. If someone can teach me a little about this and point me in the right direction to look in more detail I would be appreciative.

Thanks!

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Chris posted this 26 December 2018

Hey Zanzal,

Excellent topic! I also would like to hear from anyone that would like to share any information on this topic! With relatively low power these effects really are not seen, my question is, at higher power, is this effect seen?

I believe there is an inrush of sorts, to polarise the line impedance, XC the Inductive capacitance, is there?

   Chris 

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Atti posted this 26 December 2018

Hi.

(I hope I can understand myself and overcome language difficulties)

I wouldn't think I would be an expert on the subject but I would share a thought with you. This is an older project but still lives in detail today.

We'll see the next one. Pulse driven motor. Bedini's arrangement, but as seen from both poles, I made a better understanding of Árpád Bóday's transformer. If we think more about the pulse-driven engine, it's like a boost or buck converter.

The fill factor of the converter replaces the voltage supplied by the hall transmitter and the frequency is the engine speed. This has nothing to say so far. However, if the secondary winding load is drastically rising depending on the fill current, the motor speed will rise. Of course, the power from the power supply also increases.

However, it does not always increase as much as the load.
This engine speed increase applies only to a certain angle position !!! Before and After Not !!
About this is an oscilloscope waveform:

Before loading 

load

 

Before loading :

The upper signal shape is the lower voltage and the current is the current.

load

In this latter image, the voltage induced by the permanent magnet is also good. There is vibration here because ferrite is the material.

So the point is:

In a given angle position, the magnetic back effect caused by the current of the load current is added to the applied magnetic excitation.This effect is different for the transformer, but here is the engine speed increase.The speed is a D.C. motor measures the pulse motor on top. Detail of an older video sent to a friend.

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Zanzal posted this 26 December 2018

Hey Atti, I don't think that it has anything to do with what Telsa described.  Perhaps I simply don't understand it like you do, can you describe it outside of the context of a pulse motor? Leading and trailing spikes on a pulse motor coil are not very mysterious and don't have any connection to the driving transistor's action but are caused by the strong field and movement of the permanent magnet.

Tesla was referring to a manual breaker type switch, that when closed would sometimes result in lethal discharge to the person who threw the switch. We might speculate any number of things to satisfy what he might have been referring too, so many possible things, but has anyone studied it closely to see if there is a real effect here we should understand or is it just something mundane? Does this effect also exist when transistors are used to "close the circuit" and if so how do we identify this effect? 

 

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Atti posted this 26 December 2018

Hey Zanzal. I don't know what you think of Tesla writing.
What kind of layout, what kind of transformer, what switch, ,,,,, I'm sorry if I couldn't help you.

Vidura posted this 26 December 2018

Hi all, This effect is related to disruptive discharges at hi energy levels, it is not an inductive surge, but related to longitudinal waves. You can imagine a very abrupt potencial change from a source(capacitor or dynamo) to another conductive material of any shape, but with a significant capacitance(mayby any shape is not correct, but it is not an inductor needed).Then there can occur a "hammer" effect which can lead to very strong surges in the moment of closing the switch(or sparkgap). I had some observation time back, but not documented. Hi Voltage has to be present , at least in what I could observe. Hv capacitors or Leyden jars can be used to produce the effect, note that this is dangerous if you decide to replicate or investigate on this phenomenon, keep a save distance if you do, and note that this shockwaves can't be shielded. Regards Vidura.

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Chris posted this 26 December 2018

Hi Vidura,

You mean something like this:

 

After the event?

I have covered much of this in our Impulse Pressure Wave thread. I was under the impression that Tesla stated at the instant of switch closure, where as Pressure Waves are after the effect, and you can see, distance can change the event considerably to the timing of the wave arrival.

   Chris 

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Zanzal posted this 26 December 2018

I think it does make sense that a phenomena related to current flow in inductors has a parity in capacitors which start to discharge. Capacitors and inductors are like two sides of a coin.

If such a phenomena exists perhaps the effect scales with the voltage potential in the capacitor and the speed of switch closure similar to how inductive spikes scale with current flow and switch opening speed. As Chris suggested, this might explain why we rarely see it as most of the experiments involving inductors do not require high voltages.

So then perhaps many who use the term "disruptive discharge" are referring to this very thing.

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Vidura posted this 27 December 2018

@Chris, for the moment I cant see the videos, as the internet connections broken down for the fourth time this summer season, with a lot of equipment damaged and unusual strong thunderstorm s. My Son who is living on the other side of the mountains commented that a investigation team from U.S. came with an impressive scientific equipment for investigations of thunderstorm s,ascending the mountains , and a few hours later they have unusual strong atmospheric discharge es and climatic phenomenon, at about 40 km away. Strange, don't they've thunderstorm for investigations in U.S. ? Or mayby experimenting with some technology with uncertain side effects. @Zanzal. I think you are right that there are effects on capacitors discharge witch are like the other side of the coin compared to inductors. The related surge seems to be much stronger when the inductance is very small, when you remove the L2 from a teslacoil and L1 has a few turns only, or an extended wire or metal bar is used, eventually the effect can be observed, as the potential is not converted into magnetic fields a stress or shockwave will be set up( I believe that the ether is transmitting this waves in longitudinal axis), and when this wave hits a conductive material ,the latter will be electrified,transforming the shockwave in a Efield or in case of hitting an ferromagnetic material it can be magnetized. It is a interesting topic and as you said there is not much information and testing results available.

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Prometheus posted this 27 December 2018

Having worked at an old electrical generation station with a switchyard that required grabbing an insulated pole and pulling the HV switches (essentially just big busbars on a hinge) down to connect them, and pushing them up to disconnect them, I can say at 12 KV there was only a slight arc when closing the switches, just before the switch was actually closed. It was the high voltage ionizing the air and creating a current path. We were taught to slam the switches closed as quick as we could.

Opening the switches, on the other hand, led to a large arc. The small gap at first opening led to the air being ionized, creating a current path and it persisted until the switch was at about 60 degrees of its 90 degree swing.

 

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Chris posted this 27 December 2018

@Prometheus - Excellent info! Thanks for sharing! Grey food for the grey matter!

@Vidura - The US team, did they come back green? Fully charged? Hahaha bad joke? Wow what an experience! We get pretty good thunder storms here, normally around end of spring heading into and through summer. I very much enjoy watching them, the different colour of the lightning, how it ionises the air. The damage can be serious sometimes! Nature is ultimate!

Conduction is an amazing thing!

We have arrangements of the same basic materials. Inductors are the same basic materials as Capacitors. Capacitors and Inductors are only arranged slightly differently, but they behave very differently! Resistors are the same basic materials as Inductors, arranged slightly differently again, yet behaving quite different! We have Components with varied values of properties: Impedance, Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. Our high tech components that are designed and engineered to perfection all have one thing we can count on, that's Conduction.

Without Conduction, we have nothing that will allow for the guidance and utilization of the Electrical phenomena!

   Chris

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