Delayed conduction experiment

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cd_sharp posted this 17 April 2019

Hey, guys

I just thought to see what's the voltage over the additive POC if it's open circuit. This is the schema:

And the results set on x10 (the pink - A and light blue - B are the floating voltages of the ends of the additive POC with respect to ground) and the dark blue (set on 10 V/ division) is the A-B voltage over the coil. We can see it's too much for the Math function on my oscilloscope.

I also notice the timing. It's exactly after the input voltage was turned off.

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Chris posted this 17 April 2019

Hey CD,

Excellent very worth while experiments! Very nice to see simple experiments being shared that have great importance!

  • Why do the Coils Ring?
  • Why such a high Voltage?
  • Why do you see the same frequency ringing at switch on as switch off?
  • Why no ringing in the middle?
  • What's occurring inside the Core, is the Core Ringing like the Coils are?

If Voltage V = 10 Volts and the Resistance R = 10 Ohms then Current I will be 1 Ampere.

If V = 100 Volts then Current I will be 10 Amperes through the same Resistance R.

Be careful of your scope, over voltages can be damaging.

   Chris

 

cd_sharp posted this 18 April 2019

Hey, buddy

I think the additive POC coil rings because there is no impedance on it. I have seen the same ringing in the Akula lantern no 4 when tuned for RLC resonance. My guess is the capacitors in the probes are playing a role here.

It's a high voltage because the collapse of the magnetic field is very sharp.

It's the same frequency at switch on and at switch off because the RLC resonant frequency is constant, no matter what the change in magnetic field there is.

There is no ringing in the middle because the magnetic field enters the last part of the storage phase and it grows slower and slower. The change in time is small.

I think the core is ringing also, it's probably like a resonant cavity which reflects the wave back and forth.

I have the D.U.T. completely floating, the PSU is not grounded, so if I don't touch the open coil, I and the oscilloscope should be safe.

Please let me know any thougths, corrections and ideas. I'll be coming back to close the ends of the additive POC.

Thanks

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cd_sharp posted this 19 April 2019

Hey, guys

This is the new setup:

I don't know how to add a varistor in Circuit Wizard, so I added D1 and D2 Zener diodes. I'm forcing the additive POC to always conduct such as to add the primary coil by using the D3 diode.

The pink - light blue calculates the dark blue trace. The voltage over the varistor seems to be high enough for conduction, but I did a frequency sweep and nothing noticeable happened.

The varistor is JVR14N470K.

The datasheet shows this graph:

I don't know what I understood wrong and I'm not sure the varistor conducts. Any ideas?

Thanks

Chris posted this 19 April 2019

Hey CD,

This is awesome! I am very impressed with this post! Thank You for sharing!

If I may suggest, remove the Diode, on the one Coil L3, make the circuit like this:

 

The Voltage on L3, when It reaches VC, or Break over Voltage, the device will conduct. If you don't reach the Conduction Voltage on the Coil, the device will not Conduct.

 

 

Remember what we talked about, Rise over Run, the Time it takes to Conduct is important:

 

 

So, the slope of the Voltage Increase on the Coil L3, from Zero Volts to VC, Conduction Voltage has a Time Constant. This Time Constant is important to the Triggering of Magnetic Resonance, this adjusts the Run Time because the Slope Increases with Frequency.

Some may term this Rise Time tR:

 

 

 

This is the Time the Voltage is "Generated", where the Magnetic Field starts Changing.

At Conduction, you have CLOSE to Zero Volts across the Coil L3 / TVS or MOV, because its Conducting, you have Current instead. You already know how to measure Current wink.

   Chris

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Vidura posted this 19 April 2019

hey cd , the varistor that you used is 460volts, this might be too high for your setup?

vidura

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cd_sharp posted this 19 April 2019

Hey, guys

Let me see if I understood correctly. @Chris, the slope needs to be as steep as possible. So, the maximum magnetic field must be collapsed as fast as possible. I guess this the device needs a bigger bulb.

@Vidura, where did you find that? For example, here I see "Varistor Uac/Udc= 30V/38V, Un= 47V", whatever Udc and Un mean.

Can you please explain what's the simbol of Vbr and Vc and how else they may be called from the picture below?

Thanks guys, lots of things to learn.

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Vidura posted this 19 April 2019

Hey cd, I'm sorry I confused the device with the k471 which is for mains voltage with a clamping voltage of 700 volts. Vwm would be the maximum working voltage (used as surge protector), Vbr the break down voltage, and Vc the clamping voltage, when the resistance becomes negligible. Sorry for my mistake.Vidura.

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Chris posted this 19 April 2019

Hey CD,

The Frequency needs to be adjusted to find the right Slope.

Slope is Time dependant: the Run variable, because your MOV or TVS is a fixed Voltage: the Rise Variable

So the only thing you can adjust, is Run or Frequency in this case.

If I am reading correctly, your Voltages are too high, get a device that Clamps/Conducts at say 20 - 50 volts. These things are cheap.

WOW, those datasheets are the worst I have ever read! 

   Chris 

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cd_sharp posted this 20 April 2019

Hey, Chris,

You're right. I can see here the clamping voltage is 93V. I'll try another model.

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Vidura posted this 20 April 2019

 
@CD.

To take into account: the MOV is basically a RESISTOR, a LOAD, although varying on applied voltage. In the case of the device that you used it means that at the nominal voltage only1mA of current will flow, gradually increasing until reaching the clamping voltage. in between this values the device will dissipate as any resistor. If you need a more abrupt switching the TVS diode or a switch might be better.

vidura

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cd_sharp posted this 24 April 2019

Hey, guys

I received the TVS diodes. I tried all of them on this circuit:

Here are the results using BZW 06-13 B , duty cycle 16%, frequency 250c/s:

Yellow is the input gate trace, dark blue is the voltage over the TVS.

From what I can tell, I reaches the Vbr during the input pulse, but never Vc. I did a full frequency sweep.

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cd_sharp posted this 13 July 2019

Guys,

I took some time to make some really good bobbins and wire the coils separately on my new AMCC-200 core. I tried this experiment:

I noticed something that I have seen previously in other experiments but I didn't give much attention. Here it is:

Pink is voltage across the TVS, light blue is the current through L2, dark blue is the current through L3 and yellow is the FG signal.

What exactly is going on?

Chris posted this 14 July 2019

Hey CD,

Awesome work!

You are so close that its not funny! This is the start of the Slapping together of the Magnetic Fields on the Partnered Output Coils!

 

Keep going on this! This is awesome progress! Remember, the Output characteristics need to be Sawtooth Waves:

 

 

With a low Input Duty Cycle and long Off Time, the Cycle will Pump Electrons through the Insulated Copper Coils.

Suggestion:

  • Lower your Input Coil Turns and use thicker wire.

 

This will give you a Faster Rise Time, so the TVS will conduct faster, now take off a few turns at a time and try it.

Awesome Work CD! You're nearly there!.

   Chris

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Jagau posted this 14 July 2019

hi CD

very good experiment

you get ahead

thank for sharing, very interesting

Jagau

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cd_sharp posted this 14 July 2019

Hey, guys,

I forgot to mention, all the coils are wound with 0.6mm diameter (AWG #22) enameled copper wire.

I'll make L1 with 2 mm diameter (AWG #12) copper wire.

I'll keep you posted,

Thanks, my friends

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Chris posted this 14 July 2019

Hey CD,

Your Coils appear to be Bucking, from the Noise we can hear in the Video, and this is good! Very Good! From what I can tell on the Scope it also appears this is the case. So, you have the Delayed Conduction working!

Well Done!

I hope all Readers pay very special attention to this and learn from it!

As you already know, Frequency and Duty Cycle play a Role!

Increasing the Frequency and Decreasing the Duty Cycle may be of benefit, or even decreasing the Frequency and keeping the same Duty Cycle... This is part of the Adjustments needed to get to the end Goal. wink

Time is the Coils Natural Response:

 

 

Voltage is the Amplitude gained when the Electromagnetic Waves Slap together:

 

The Coils also have peak Magnetic Fields, both Opposing. If you study the Ocean Waves and what the cause is, in how the Amplitudes become much Higher that what Science currently predicts, and apply this same cause to your Coils, then you will have a Running Functioning Machine as I have described. 

Well done CD, awesome demonstration of the Delayed Conduction Effect!

   Chris

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patrick1 posted this 15 July 2019

Hi Sharp , what is the akula scope shots you refer too above ?. - also did you figure out if you can stop your coils ringing like akulas do unloaded ?, or if that is even the right thing too do, -  ?.  - i have not managed too see much of his work  and i dont know how honest it is.  - hopfuil of course. 

also i would like too say, - i only understand a little of what your doing, but fundermentally one thing stands out too me, - all of your output power is in phase with the input...  and im doing the opposite ;-D.....   im like* cmon boys get your sht together*..   giggles.

pls let me know what you think about this ringing, - because i have found this kind of interference creates much loading on the input power., without proportional benifet, - although i have only just started exploring this as a possible problem... like yesterday !!

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cd_sharp posted this 15 July 2019

Hey, Patrick

what is the akula scope shots you refer too above ?

also did you figure out if you can stop your coils ringing like akulas do unloaded ?

You can minimize the ringing by avoiding to overlap the coils.

if that is even the right thing too do, - ?

I can't tell, I did not completely replicate lantern no 4. It's using almost 0 power, but it's not self running.

I'm interested in studying devices showing greater output power these days. Ecologically speaking, time is running out.

Chris posted this 18 July 2019

Hey CD,

Thanks for sharing!

Inter-Winding Capacitance in combination with the Inductance of the Coils is the cause of the Ringing. If the Capacitance or the Inductance changes, then the Frequency will also change. A Transformer under load has a different Inductance then if it has no load.

Good experiment!

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 18 July 2019

Hey, guys

Let's examine in more detail the reason why the DC power supply was doing so much noise.

Looks like the Mr Preva Experiment, we see the phase shifting. We also see the big variation in input current and we see that the current measured on R1 is much bigger than the current measured over R2.

This is also happening when the MOSFET is off (at least it should be). Why does that pulse show up when it does? It looks like it's the effect of delayed conduction at the specific frequency of 9 c/s.

The power supply is simply shifting some relays (probably) inside. It does that when jumping certain current values up or down. That's what's causing the noise.

There is no reverse current against the power supply as I thought initially. I used a diode to prove it.

Lots of stuff learnt today. Thanks for the reading!

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