Above unity in forward topology?

  • Last Post 23 April 2019
YoElMiCrO posted this 24 January 2019

This is my first post.

In which I will try to analyze a prototype that I have been developing, is based on direct topology (Forward)
It is definitely a good candidate and we can all improve it.

Let us begin…
The system is from the thermodynamic point of view closed and open at the same time.
Any system that involves in its energy transfer function a
transformer has a dynamic path open from the virtual point of view,
because the energy supplied by the source has to become magnetic
before reaching the load.
Let's cut to the chase ...
We all know that an inductance integrates the current, E = L (di / dt), being
its slope (V / L) only for u0 and with limits for ferromagnetic cores due
to the hysteresis of it (non-linear).
The value of the same for a given moment is Vton / L and the energy stored in
magnetic form is (1/2) iL ^ 2 / L.
Well, that happens for Flyback topologies, in the Forwards that energy normally
it is returned to the source, the input capacitor; the current that is reflected from the secondary
the primary Ip = Is (Ns / Np) has to assume the source of supply, even here
everything is fine, are the textbooks, remembering that everything is ideal, not considering lost ...
Well, it turns out that if we fix this Forward circuit we find a phenomenon
magnetic that does not have logical analysis, it does not matter how you do it, nor the method.
Without further ado, here is the circuit ...

I have drawn the meaning of the currents, if we analyze we will see that I3 = I1 + I2,
an inexplicable phenomenon, but let's continue.
The core is an EFD25 material 3C90, but it can have any geometrical shape and can
calculate the turns of the primary respecting that it does not saturate, then in the secondary add to the voltage
induced diode voltage in forward, this is Np = (EdcTon / (BmAe), where Edc in volts, Ton
in micro seconds, Bm in teslas and Ae in square millimeters and for Ns1 = Ns2 = ((Edc + 1) Np / Edc, in this way they can use the nucleus they have on hand.
The total power absorbed from the source is ...
Pin = 0.5 (di / dt) Edc (Ton / T) which is not more than the sum of the individual absorbed powers
for the components that make up the series lasso, Pr2 + Ppt + Q1loss + Pr3.
Where di / dt is the variation of current in time that crosses R2 and corresponds
only with the primary inductance, ie the magnetized inductance Ipk = (VpTon) / Lp,
the secondary S2 is responsible for returning the energy stored in the inductance
magnetizing during the period when Q1 is off and is E = 0.5Ipk ^ 2Lp, in this way
the input power is reduced to only that of the losses of the circuit and we have a 100% functional forward topology like the ones we see every day.
Now, if we connect the secondary S1 in the way we see in the circuit, we will observe the following; by having induced in the forward direction a voltage equal to that of the primary plus the
drop voltage of the serial diode the voltage that supplies the power supply will be seen
negative in the resistor R1 and the current flowing in said path will be reflected in the
primary, being I1 + I2 for the same time of Ton, the curious thing here is the following.
This current should be supplied by the power source, but it is not, that source
it only feeds the current needed to magnetize the nucleus and S2 becomes a source
more food, this should extract its energy from the environment that surrounds us and what
shows by the temperature difference in the core.
On the other hand, the output power that we take in R3 is 0.5 (di / dt) ^ 2R3 (Ton / T), being the
new di / dt the slope for a Lp much smaller than the initial one, the lower the Lp
higher output power and is tightly bound to the ferromagnetic material that the shape,
specifically with the variation in its permeability.


Excuse me for my English.


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Chris posted this 25 January 2019

Hey YoElMiCrO,

An excellent post! Very well presented and thought out!

You very clearly are following the same path we are on - The erroneous "Generation" of E.M.F resulting in Currents that are Pumped from the Near Field in the immediate area of the Magnetic Fields.

Any Source of Energy, I should say any Source of Imbalance, of Equilibrium, is a Source of the Poynting Vector. Near Field interactions, pumping Energy into the Immediate Space.

Coils are Antenna's!

Great Thread, please continue!


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cd_sharp posted this 28 January 2019

Hey, @YoElMiCrO,

what a fantastic post! This looks a lot like some of Akula's work. I would be very glad to see the practical experiment you are talking about.

Chris posted this 28 January 2019

My Friends,

@CD, agree and yes this is very familiar - The simplicity is beyond comprehension! YoElMiCrO knows his stuff, is experienced in the arts!

This is a very simple Experiment! It follows all the rules we are already familiar with. We see: R1 ( 0.22 Ohms ) is a Conduction Delay for the Diode: D2. We see a step up, 12 turns to 13 turns. We see Currents Oppose, depicted by the Arrows! We see Two Output Coils, Partnered Output Coils! We see much more of what we have already covered!

Everything about this follows the same rules we have outlined on this Forum!

I would encourage others to replicate and share their experiments!


Chris posted this 28 January 2019

Please forgive me if I have renamed incorrectly, I have done so to increase awareness.

About unity in forward topology?



Above unity in forward topology?



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Atti posted this 29 January 2019

It is really worth examining this topology. I have already mentioned, but I'll take it again. Árpád Bóday's invention. 




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Zanzal posted this 30 January 2019

Circuit seems like a good start to me. The only change I made was to switch it high side and use Chris' recommended winding ratio. My no-load replication self-sustains with only signal generator input and some initial cap charging. Also I ditched C2 and just went with a bigger C1. Not getting massive output, but its plausibly AU without the signal generator.

With an initial charge of 4V the C1 (a 2200uF cap) charged slowly to 30.39V. Duty cycle was 9.695% at 27.638kHz. The transformer had two 108 turn secondaries with a 36 turn primary. The two halves of the core were specially gapped. Thanks YoElMiCrO for sharing your circuit.

Zanzal posted this 30 January 2019

Some additional observations from my own replication:

  • L3 was not contributing significantly to the output so these observations are based on using only two coils.
  • High side switching is not required, low side seems to work just fine.
  • The following turn ratios did not yield good results: 12 to 108, 108 to 108, 12 to 36.
  • Increasing the capacitance of C1 to 22mF didn't harm the operation in anyway, though charging was slower, energy stored over time is greater.
  • The gap remains important, efficiency is harmed very easily in my setup because the gap is hard to get right.
  • Duty cycle and frequency do not need to be spot on. With lower capacitance it is easy to find the perfect frequency and duty cycle to maximize output.

So most important factors for my setup is: gap and turns. Since previous experiments helped me to understand how this particular core needs to be gapped to get the most out of it, it would largely be a matter of finding the best turns ratio. Also finding the best mosfet and diodes still needs to be done, that could give me a little bit more efficiency, but I don't expect huge gains there.

Note: In both of the above the signal generator is still directly connected to the mosfet gate and ground so this replication is not self-powered. I don't plan to share any self powered results though if someone else wishes too, that is certainly their choice.

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Chris posted this 30 January 2019

Thanks for sharing Zanzal!

S1 and S2 must have sufficient interactions, both equal and opposite for Current, Voltage is not the case, same as The Mr Preva Experiment.

I tend to agree, we are not yet at the stage where running machines would benefit the community, we don't have sufficient momentum yet. It would just create division, as some do not yet have sufficient knowledge of what we are doing!


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Atti posted this 30 January 2019

Can be replaced according to the two drawings above: S1-T, S2-VCS. VT is the control coil.  The VT coil is twice the coil T. So there is a noticeable similarity in other works. It is also worth using performance measurement for a better understanding.

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Chris posted this 30 January 2019

My Friends,

The basic Circuit layout is simple:



I suggest replicating the very simple circuit with the recommended values, turns and so on. Learn how this circuit may work. Learn what is being presented. Learn how to optimise this circuit before changing it. Truly an hours work could see a nice replication.

Changing the Circuit that's presented is not a wise approach, when learning the ideas presented.


Zanzal posted this 30 January 2019

Yes, I agree Chris, sticking with the circuit as presented will be the best course. Part of what I am seeing my replication and the path that led me to the changes was something I introduced into the circuit unwittingly. Is it good, is it bad, time will tell, I need to study it more, but I also need to fix it and go back to the original. Perhaps I should have made my own thread in hindsight.

Chris posted this 30 January 2019

Hey Zanzal,

I think you have a lot more experience, so your existing experience gives you the knowledge to be able to make changes as you see fit.

I am still learning today, when I make changes to my machines, sometimes its for the worse, sometimes for the better...

I do however urge those learning to replicate as close as possible to the original, you will benefit from following the outlined Circuit much more if you approach it this way! I promise you!


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YoElMiCrO posted this 31 January 2019

Hi all.

Apologize, I have not had much time.
As soon as you have a working prototype
I raise diagram and catches of the oscilloscope.
This is based on a buck converter that also
it works in fordward, but it has already added the PWM
of control and we can improve it among all.

Again, excuse my English.

Cd_sharp, upload pictures of the physical circuit.
Chris, when you see a grammatical error, you certainly fix it.
Thank you very much.

Chris posted this 31 January 2019

Hi YoElMiCrO,

Your English is perfectly understandable, it is good wink

I agree, working together we can improve these Systems! I must say, it is important that they are understood, the basic layout and how they work must be understood first. Approaching these Systems with no understanding almost always ends in failure.


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YoElMiCrO posted this 01 February 2019

Hi all.
Here some images of the circuit assembled.
I still do not have the 3W led, when I do
tests post oscillograms and powers.

Chris posted this 01 February 2019

Very nice YoElMiCrO!

Looking forward to some results.


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YoElMiCrO posted this 05 February 2019

Hi all.
Today I get the 3 Watt LED.
I will begin the tests as soon as I have it in hand,
for this circuit the load must be of constant tension.
I will talk about progress.

Thanks Chris and everyone.

YoElMiCrO posted this 07 February 2019

Hi all.

I have already done tests.
Yes !, Chris is right when he says that this phenomenon obeys the experiment of
current made by Mr Preva, only that in this circuit the point of operation is in the first quadrant of the hysteresis cycle, not as in the case of MrPreva which are the two quadrants of the cycle, the first and third.
The circuit in question is this ...

Let's look at this oscillogram ...

The two di / dt are appreciated, the one with the lowest slope is the one that sees the source of supply
and the one with the steepest slope is the one that circulates through the load, I1 and I3.
Analyzing the situation we observed that the inductance fell in value for the load, because
It is the same TonVdc and its slope is greater.
For this circuit to work, the primary voltage must be constant, that is, the
sum of the individual tensions will be the supply.
In this circuit, the output voltage will always be lower than the supply voltage, as
a Buck converter would do it, however the relation VdcTon / T = Vout does not apply and its point of operation will be at the discontinuous / continuous boundary.
For this particular case the LED is ~3.6V@830mA and the 12Vdc supply source,
as the average current of the led is 0.83A, the peak current should be 2 * 0.83 = 1.66A and we will adjust Rv2 until the voltage in resistor R10 has a greater peak equal to 365mV in the ramp, the frequency should be more low while adjusting this current, note that this current is the sum of the two individual I1 and I2.
Then we can adjust Rv1 to finally set the point of operation in the border continuously, if necessary we can change C6, to readjust Rv1 again.
The calculation of the transformer is as follows ...
Edc = Vled + Vp + Vsat + Vr10, if we ignore the voltage drops Vsat + Vr10 we will remain
that Vp = Edc-Vled and we can calculate the number of turns for the primary.
Suppose FSw = 55KHz, Ae = 58mm², Bm = 0.25T and Ton = 85% T = 0.85 * 18uS = 15uS.
These data are for the EFD25 that you use, this saturates ~ 0.330T and we will have to be
below this value, also how it works on a fordward basis should not have a gap
the core used.
We calculate then ...
Np = VpTon / (BmAe) = (12-3.6) * 15 / (0.25 * 58) = 8.6 ~ 9Turns for the primary.
As the voltage that is induced in the secondary must be Edc + Vfd, then ...
Ns = VsNp / Vp = (12 + 1) * 9 / (12-3.6) = 13.9 ~ 14Turns for the secondary.
And these will be the data of the transformer, as they see the energy stored in the
primary is also added to the load during the demagnetization cycle through
of the half of the diode D2, not being so in the circuit proposed above.

If you have any questions, let me know.
We are in touch.

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Chris posted this 07 February 2019

Awesome work and verification YoElMiCrO!

May I ask, have you read my thread: Some Coils Buck and some Coils DONT

There is a lot of information in there that you may be able to align with your work. Ideally a system with TOn < 10% & TOff > 90% when TOff is the work Cycle of the Bucking Coils, can be ideal.

The Voltage drop issue can be resolved with Timing, invoking a Transient, getting this to occur:


Ref: https://www.youtube.com /watch?v=EUXOZAinUPk


Or by playing around with Turns or both.


Jagau posted this 07 February 2019

Hi yo

Just to make sure I understood correctly, the circuit proposed at the beginning is not the same as you now propose,

it is completely different ??


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